Jul 10, 2009, 01:34 PM // 13:34
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#81
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Nov 2005
Guild: [CRFH]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalendraf
It seems this needs some clarification.
For starters, consider a skill that is tied to a title. For a simple example I'm going to choose Necrosis. It's a pretty widely used skill, and advancing sunspear ranks makes it more effective. In GW, sunspear ranks are very easy to obtain, at least to around level 8. To raise it past there, a player may need to do some hard mode or books, neither of which require repetative grinding. By doing the missions in NM and HM, turning in books, and/or vanquishing sunspear areas once (which are generally ez to vanq) a player will earn more than enough sunspear points to max the title. If a player doesn't want to do that much work, they still have a quite effective Necrosis skill at SS rank 8.
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If it was like that, it would be a decent system. Certainly better than a traditional levelling system.
However, you've chosen the least grindy of the reputation titles as your example. As you say, you get most of the way just by completing the game, and after that... well, pretty much anything you do in Elona proper (not the RoT) will net you Sunspear points, as long as you do it in HM. I got Legendary Spearmarshal through vanquishing - although I'm not sure I want to do it nine times over again!
But now let's compare, say, Ebon Vanguard. The total time investment involved is probably around the same as Sunspear, but instead of having a whole continent of stuff to do, you have three zones and two books - and if you do it the book route, you'll have the same two books for the other three EOTN titles too. I don't have any max rank Vanguard characters, and to be frank, I'm already sick of the Charr Homelands.
Meanwhile, there are plenty of perfectly legitimate level 20 play areas that give you nothing. Kaineng, the Crystal Desert, Southern Shiverpeaks, Perdition Rock... why can't they be worth something?
Incidentally, this is the sort of thing I'm hoping that GW2's "high" level cap will turn out to be - something like titles in its impact on a character's strength, but which can be progressed anywhere, not in a tiny little portion of a game that has so much more to offer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar
It doesn't reduce advancement in the least because those skills are still required to succeed in the game. You said a character who had been playing longer has more options, which is no longer the case.
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So in this case, it flips over to the player that has more options. As a later player has pointed out, you need to have unlocked those skills in the first place. (Okay, you can get the PvP unlock pack, but that's not what it's intended for.)
In fact, shifting it back to the player gives another example of choice over power - a player who's built up a second (or third, or fourth, or tenth) character then has the additional option of playing with that character(s)'s primary profession.
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Yet my example is still just as valid. Regardless of a level based game, time spent in the game is important, only in a level based game, that time spent is shown by a level mechanic and in guildwars, that time spent is shown with total aquired skill points/skills. Same basic concept, different application.
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But the player who has 8 skills can still be just as competitive as the player that has 2000 but happens to be using the same 8.
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Yes, you do. The more you play, the better you get. So if you build 2 level 80 characters, you will naturally gain more experience at the game than just making a single level 80 character. but with guildwars, you can get to the high end areas before you are ready.
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Oh, really? It's theoretically true that the more time you spend the better you'll be, but there's a significant case of diminishing-returns kicking in here - you've learned most of what there is to learn at the low levels going through once. If you really need to spend another 80 levels (or whatever) just to apply that to a new class in the same game...
Plus, I think it was you yourself that was advocating assisted powerlevelling in Diablo2 earlier in this thread... how much do you really learn about the game getting powerlevelled? Or is this just a sign that you know everything there is to know about play at that level, and you just want to cut to the chase? What's wrong with just, well, cutting to the chase?
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The point was that playing a high level in a low level area is no fun. Well playing a level 20, fully skilled and geared is no fun in low level areas for some. Same thing regardless of level.
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However, in a game with a high level limit, there'll be a much higher proportion of the game that is no longer any fun because it was designed for lower level characters.
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All of eotn is not a level 20 area, which is why you can play there as a level 10, which is why they allow level 10's to go to eotn. My example doesn't fail in the least, playing the beginner areas as a fully skilled level 20 is as fun as playing a level 20 area as a level 80. Its not much fun at all.
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And the game gives you a buff that pretty much turns you into a level 20 character to compensate. I think it's safe to say that EOTN is a level 20 area, even if it offers the option to skip that levelling and jump straight in. (Which, for the record, wasn't available on release - being level 20 was a requirement then.)
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Gear based games are a benefit in those games and far from a crutch. In gw if I have trouble with an area, it has very little to do with my gear (although gear still plays an important role in gw) and more to do with trial and error through skill combinations.
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...I'm not sure how pointing out that gear won't save you in Guild Wars follows. Guild Wars has always worked on the principle that you can get mechanically top-notch gear fairly easily. Yes, what equipment you use can have an influence on how you play (or, probably more accurately, vice versa), but an endgame green can give you something that's good enough in pretty short order.
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TF2 is not a game I'v played, so I was using a general FPS example and my point still stands. In common FPS games, weapons make you stronger. If you have two people who are equally as good, the one with the better weapons will win more often than not.
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The point I was making is that it wasn't the difference between fighting with a rifle over fighting with a rocket launcher (which is the WoW style of advancement), but of the difference between fighting with a standard issue rifle over something a little more customised (but, I point out here, customised in the form of having tradeoffs, not being better).
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When did I ever say guildwars should be a level based game? I was just pointing out the appeal level based games have and why they have been the standard for over 20 years in the rpg genre. I knew what kind of game guildwars was before I ever got it and have never said "I wish it had more levels or was more level based".
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You're not one of the people who wants GW2 to be a WoW-style grindfest?
If so, I might actually be forced to respect you.
Last edited by draxynnic; Jul 10, 2009 at 01:44 PM // 13:44..
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Jul 10, 2009, 02:41 PM // 14:41
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#82
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Grotto Attendant
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kyhlo
Profession: W/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EPO Bot
A pug title...
Now how is that supposed to work?
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Well, maybe a group title, as any group should count.
It could work like survivor....
X amount of XP gained in a group without dropping. Just an idea., sure there are flaws to be worked out.
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Jul 10, 2009, 03:55 PM // 15:55
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#83
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Bubblegum Patrol
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Singapore Armed Forces
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fril Estelin
True if you consider the OP features (consumables, invici-skills). Not true if you take a more "reasonable" approach to playing the game. HM is an opportunity (not the best) to up your game and forces you to think tactically (not always) if you drop the OP features. This is probably why many PvP group will easily defeat PvE challenges, throught the tactical advantage of team coordination and field synchronisation, two aspects that can still be achieved by anyone (even H/H, although I find this a bit too specific, you have to play with 32 skills, it looks like WoW with its buttons all over the place).
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Because the objective of PvE is just to kill stuff quickly, there are very few tactics involved. Running bars effectively, positioning, intelligent protting etc are all mechanical aspects. The only major tactic is 'go forth and kill' - and once a strategy is known, the only requirement is replicating it as necessary. PvE doesn't adapt vs players, so you don't need tactical ability to counter what they do.
__________________
And the heavens shall tremble.
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Jul 10, 2009, 07:29 PM // 19:29
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#84
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Did I hear 7 heroes?
Join Date: May 2005
Guild: Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Improvavel
What exactly optional means?
Some people will argue with you by saying DoA is an optional content and so it is all fine. And really, do you need tormented weapons, they will say.
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In Guild Wars it would be the Challenge Missions, not Elite areas. You're given a task, a time limit (generally), and ranked depending on how well you perform. Complete all the quests in the Fissure of Woe or the Underworld, kill Urgoz, kill Mallyx, elite missions all have endings and tangible awards. Granted the challenge missions in Nightfall and Eye of the North offer the hero armors as rewards but you hardly need to perform well to acquire them.
Challenge missions are basically the pinnacle of what could be called PvE skill. While in normal PvE there is no need to perfectly optimize your bar, and analyze the specific task at hand, challenge missions demand that level of attention to score better. Consider what the PvE community does now with speed running, it's the same thing. Groups are looking to optimize their routes, their skill bars, solely for the purpose of clearing the area slightly faster.
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Jul 10, 2009, 09:01 PM // 21:01
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#85
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Around
Guild: Pillar's of Earth [ROCK]
Profession: W/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic
So in this case, it flips over to the player that has more options. As a later player has pointed out, you need to have unlocked those skills in the first place. (Okay, you can get the PvP unlock pack, but that's not what it's intended for.)
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Here's the deal. When it comes to unlocking skills, you don't need any talent at the game at all. Just keeping doing the training area until you have all the skills unlocked. You can also purchase the skill unlock pack. Whether or not it was meant for that reason doesn't change the fact that people can and do use it for that reason. In level based games, unless you are powerleveling, you have to earn those skills you gain. Powerleveling, to me, is the same as purchasing an unlock pack. But either way those methods don't improve a players over all skill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic
But the player who has 8 skills can still be just as competitive as the player that has 2000 but happens to be using the same 8.
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Not really, they have fewer options which effectively gives them a handicap. True they have the same amount of choices IN-Battle, but if I have 2000 skills and you only have 8, I can make a more effective skillbar than you could.
Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic
Oh, really? It's theoretically true that the more time you spend the better you'll be, but there's a significant case of diminishing-returns kicking in here - you've learned most of what there is to learn at the low levels going through once. If you really need to spend another 80 levels (or whatever) just to apply that to a new class in the same game...
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If you build a level 20 warrior and play it for a year, you learn a lot about the game and the profession in that time. But when you make and play another profession you learn new things. So when you make multipul characters, you continue to learn with each character, things not easily learned by playing something different. A level 20 warrior will never know everything about a mesmer because he doesn't have the same primary attribute. The more you use, the more you learn. You can't know it all unless you use it all. Just reading about it or being told won't equal actual hands on experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic
Plus, I think it was you yourself that was advocating assisted powerlevelling in Diablo2 earlier in this thread... how much do you really learn about the game getting powerlevelled? Or is this just a sign that you know everything there is to know about play at that level, and you just want to cut to the chase? What's wrong with just, well, cutting to the chase?
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Powerleveling(IMO) is for people who have already learned and just want to get to the goal faster. This is not the case though. People powerlevel and then learn the game afterwards. But they fail to learn the important factors that can only be taught by playing those skipped areas.
The problem with cutting to the chase is that (in level based games) you rob yourself of learning things which leads to easily avoided mistakes in the future and time needed to make up and learn that skipped knowledge.
Powerleveling and rushing in any game is actually a weakness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic
However, in a game with a high level limit, there'll be a much higher proportion of the game that is no longer any fun because it was designed for lower level characters.
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Not always true. If a game is scaled by level progression properly, then every 3-5 levels will have a different area. Many leveling games do every 8-10 levels. So what happens is you have many areas that prove difficult even when you are a higher level than the areas requirement. It also depends on if a game is solo friendly or not. A team based game will eat a level 80 alive even in a level 50 area.
This issue is in guildwars too. Even in level 20 areas, its sometimes too easy. Look at prophecies. Most of that entire campaign is a breeze once you have the skills and level cap. Ascalon, some of the shiverpeaks, the jungle, the desert are all walks in the park. Many areas in nightfall and factions are the same. Again many areas in Eotn are very easy. I mean in normal mode of course.. HM has very few very easy areas IMO. But I think you see the point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic
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I'll give you that and say you are correct. I never played Eotn with a level 10.
Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic
...I'm not sure how pointing out that gear won't save you in Guild Wars follows. Guild Wars has always worked on the principle that you can get mechanically top-notch gear fairly easily. Yes, what equipment you use can have an influence on how you play (or, probably more accurately, vice versa), but an endgame green can give you something that's good enough in pretty short order.
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You can succeed in level based games soley on gear, but you can succeed without that top notch gear. Items in level based games are a benefit much like pve title skills are. In guildwars, gear is just as important but because of skills and either other players or H/H, you can get by with bad gearing.
I agree that end game greens will help with success, but so will end game items in other games. The point is, items are not a crutch in level based games because you can still succeed without them, although not as easily. You can beat Hell in d2 without runics or uniques. I'v done it with rares. Its just not as easy, thats when learned skill(talent) comes into play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic
The point I was making is that it wasn't the difference between fighting with a rifle over fighting with a rocket launcher (which is the WoW style of advancement), but of the difference between fighting with a standard issue rifle over something a little more customised (but, I point out here, customised in the form of having tradeoffs, not being better).
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I get that, but again, weapons do increase power. Even in guildwars, where weapons require skills to succeed. Two players can be equally as good in gw and the one with the better skill supported weapons will usually win.
Quote:
Originally Posted by draxynnic
You're not one of the people who wants GW2 to be a WoW-style grindfest?
If so, I might actually be forced to respect you. |
No, I do not want an everquest styled guildwars. We have enough level based games in the world and I would like something different and original. When I want to grind levels I play a different game. I play guildwars for many reasons, but one of those reasons is that its NOT the norm.
Instead of more character levels, I would like the ability to empower my skills. I earn all these skill points and end up spending them on crap I don't use when I would rather sink skill points into a skill I do use to increase its overall or specific ability.
So I could use a skill point to increase the damage or duration or decrease the recharge or casting time. Give the skills a empowerment cap so I can't buff them to godhood, but give me the tools to improve my skills beyond the basic attribute buff, which would give my skill points some value instead of just being practically useless.
But no, I don't want a "world of guildwars." Whether anyone respects my opinion or not, I never wanted guildwars to evolve into what it is now. But since it has evolved, I will find the enjoyment I can and adjust myself to the game the way it is. Gw2 should stick to the original concept or as close to it as possible.
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Jul 11, 2009, 03:23 AM // 03:23
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#86
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Australia, what you want my home address?
Guild: [CAT]
Profession: Mo/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
(snip)Rather than the obvious fact that grind is an artificial way to extend gameplay without adding anything that can be called a 'game'. And that such design is lazy. Or that titles affecting gameplay marginalizes players skill in favor of time.(snip)
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That is actually a pretty good point.
When GW started the game was 90% PvE and 10% PvP or so (in terms of content), with the PvE portion being essentially a tutorial or training area that led up to the end game content, PvP! The game design was just as as lazy then, with fairly limited PvE content to keep players grinding away the natural progression was finish the PvE campaign, move on to PvP.
The PvP portion is what was meant to keep players in the game, long after the very limited PvE content was played through, and of course, the PvP portion of the game required very little work from the designers beyond skill balancing, and, one would hope, occasionally adding a new map to the rotation.
Something went wrong...
Thank you Avarre, you've given me an idea for a new thread...
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Jul 11, 2009, 06:01 AM // 06:01
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#87
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Dishonorable Hall of Fame
Profession: R/W
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We all know what happens when games take skill - PEOPLE SUCK.
At least with cookie-cutter builds people can stand a chance against people who actually know what they're doing.
Then again leveling leads to grinding.
Neither system is perfect, though I prefer skill-way cuz I OWN HARD.
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